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A Moral Dilemna
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 12:19:29
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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I suppose this isn't really a debate, but it might be interesting to discuss and challenge your viewpoints on the following situation.
I encourage you to form your own opinion and reasons before reading other people's.
Here's the situation:
You are driving a tram which can only be steered from one track to another. On the track straight ahead (in the direction the tram is moving), you see 5 workers on the track who will surely all be killed if you drive into them. You instinctively reach for the breaks but tragically they are not working.
Thankfully you notice a track off to the right just before these 5 workers, and your steering wheel is functioning correctly so you can turn off here if you decide to. On this track there is a single worker who will die if you turn onto that track.
You have two and only two options: leave the path of the tram unchanged, and kill 5 people; or turn the tram to the right, and kill 1 person.
What is your instinctive decision?
On reflection, do you turn onto the side track? Why?
Is this the right decision? Can there be a right decision?
Would this always be your decision in parallel situations, do you think?
I might follow up with some parallel situations.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| ZA Buckshot |
Posted on 06/14/2012 12:47:14
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1778
Joined: 15.11.10
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I don't think there is a correct choice here, but I think I would turn to the track with one worker. He will die, which is tragic, but five more will live because of it. Ive heard something like that before. Sacrifice one and save many more.
 
 
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/14/2012 12:53:09
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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I don't think there's really a case for staying on the same track. Why would you? Because that's what's going to happen anyway? Nah, switch tracks.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:09:39
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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The Hat of Love wrote:
I don't think there's really a case for staying on the same track. Why would you? Because that's what's going to happen anyway? Nah, switch tracks.
By moving the steering wheel to change tracks, you're participating in the outcome of the situation. Thus, the death of that 1 person is your fault.
By comparison, if you do nothing and let the situation unfold without interfering, the deaths are nobody's fault. Thus, you cannot be considered guilty for what happened - it was simply a malfunction of the tram's breaks which caused the death.
Consider, also, how you would explain your actions to the relatives (perhaps the mother?) of that 1 worker.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| za heystarface |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:16:50
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Admin
Posts: 6130
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I would have a heart attack. LOL! But seriously, if that were happening to me I don't think I would be rational enough to think "switch the tracks." I would probably wind up killing the 5.
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:18:27
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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canada wrote:
Ram and kilo the 5 guys. [] Perhaps he could be the nexztt adolf hitoer
What if the person on their own is "the nexztt adolf hitoer", as you put it? Perhaps they're planning to go on a rampage the next day and kill thousands of people? I find that argument pretty unconvincing.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:20:00
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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za heystarface wrote:
I would have a heart attack. LOL! But seriously, if that were happening to me I don't think I would be rational enough to think "switch the tracks." I would probably wind up killing the 5.
Let us imagine that you have enough time to consider the two options to a substantial degree (clearly not as long as you would have here, reading this).
What makes you think that switching is the most "rational" decision?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| Carnage |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:20:31
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Super Admin
Posts: 4245
Joined: 28.09.11
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I would change tracks and kill the 1 over the 5. I have also heard it presented with an alternate scenario having the 1 person being instead a mother and her very young baby. I think even in this situation I would still change tracks and kill the baby and mother over the 5. Where it gets difficult is if there are equal numbers on either track. I think in this situation I would go with Ninja's option and chose not to do anything and let fate decide because who knows, perhaps one of the 5 might move out of the way in time.
"Hey guys, I just bought this thing called a sight ward...so it's GG." - MasterA in League of Legends
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| za heystarface |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:23:39
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Admin
Posts: 6130
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I'm not saying that choice is the more rational one, i'm saying i'm the one that would be irrational. I wouldn't be thinking "make a choice: stay or switch," I would just be screaming.
But lets say I was of sound mind when I realized the dilema... I don't think I would switch the tracks because it is not in my power to change someone's fate. Haven't you seen final destination?
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:23:48
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
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Carnage wrote:
I would change tracks and kill the 1 over the 5. I have also heard it presented with an alternate scenario having the 1 person being instead a mother and her very young baby. I think even in this situation I would still change tracks and kill the baby and mother over the 5. Where it gets difficult is if there are equal numbers on either track. I think in this situation I would go with Ninja's option and chose not to do anything and let fate decide because who knows, perhaps one of the 5 might move out of the way in time.
What if the 1 person on the track to the right is your best friend? Your mother/father/child/sibling? Is your answer to this morally consistent with your previous statements? Honestly?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:26:10
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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za heystarface wrote:
I'm not saying that choice is the more rational one, i'm saying i'm the one that would be irrational. I wouldn't be thinking "make a choice: stay or switch," I would just be screaming.
But lets say I was of sound mind when I realized the dilema... I don't think I would switch the tracks because it is not in my power to change someone's fate. Haven't you seen final destination?
Perhaps that person's fate is to be killed by a tram driven by you, and for the others to live.
No, I haven't seen final destination - should I have? How does it relate to this?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| Riptide |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:27:45
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Super Admin
Posts: 966
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I saw this on the show "Head Games" the other day... interesting show.
The only differences were that instead of driving the tram, you were a walker nearby, and the five people on the one track were not mentioned as workers. This led me to thinking way too much about the situation, including the possible ages of all the people in the situation, how useful they would be in the future if saved compared to the one worker, etc. (5 people that would never have a job or try to accomplish anything made me think that the worker would be more useful, since he was a working individual. Then I realized this still seemed wrong.)
But after I realized I was thinking too deeply about it I decided that the 5 lives would still be the better to chose to save. And in this situation, since the 5 on the one track are also workers, I would definitely save them instead of the one lone worker.
On the show it mentioned a second scenario with the same type of situation, only slightly different:
You are walking by when you notice a group of 5 walkers on a railroad track. A train is quickly approaching behind them, and you only have two options.
1. Let the train run over the 5 people and continue on your own way.
2. Push a person near you onto the tracks to save the other 5 people up ahead.
Edited by Riptide on 06/14/2012 13:30:27
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| za heystarface |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:33:58
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Admin
Posts: 6130
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I would save my family, under any circumstances. I was given a similar dilema from a pro-christian standpoint in a culture discussion at school:
A father, (representing god), sees a boat full of people (representing humanity) about to crash into the draw bridge he works on that is out of order. The boat is filled with sinners, druggies, liars, etc. The man has only moments to decide to evacuate his young, innocent, son off the bridge, or use the radio to contact the ship so they can save the passengers. What should the man do?
The whole class argued that he must sacrifice the son to save not only the lives of many, but also the souls. The son was innocent and would go to heaven, the sinners would go to hell. Their souls could still be saved if they survived.
I argued: fuck that, I have a baby that ain't dying for ANYONE'S sins. I would never expect anyone else to sacrifice their own child or loved one for another person.
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| za heystarface |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:36:51
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Admin
Posts: 6130
Joined: 20.11.10
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And final destination is about a group of people who escape their death, so death keeps hunting them down in the order they should have died.
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| Joshkl2013 |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:39:28
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Numpty
Posts: 1443
Joined: 26.05.12
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Hit the one, plead guilty in court.
The matter stands, though, that if you're too stupid to stand in front of a train, if is your fault, not the train operator. Trains generally have the right of way.
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| Drkinferno |
Posted on 06/14/2012 13:53:55
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Wanker
Posts: 908
Joined: 11.05.11
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kill them all, and let god sort them out.... then take their money |
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| canada |
Posted on 06/14/2012 14:07:11
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Junior Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 12.06.12
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That's very true ninja. I would let fate decide since there is a reason why they are in the racks.
PS u remind of jigsaw from saw series |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/14/2012 14:17:21
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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ninja wrote:
The Hat of Love wrote:
I don't think there's really a case for staying on the same track. Why would you? Because that's what's going to happen anyway? Nah, switch tracks.
By moving the steering wheel to change tracks, you're participating in the outcome of the situation. Thus, the death of that 1 person is your fault.
By comparison, if you do nothing and let the situation unfold without interfering, the deaths are nobody's fault. Thus, you cannot be considered guilty for what happened - it was simply a malfunction of the tram's breaks which caused the death.
No, I disagree. By changing tracks, yes, you become guilty of that one person's death. However, by not doing anything, I still think that you are causing the deaths of these people. Whether you like it or not, you're involved. 'How would you explain it to the family of the man?' is an argument sometimes used. But how would you explain to the families of the five men why you didn't switch tracks when you could have? Five times worse.
And it's not like trams are silent, why don't they just get off the tracks?!
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
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| ZA Bvigil |
Posted on 06/14/2012 14:50:33
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Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: 15.11.10
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Oh the classic psychology question personally I do not have the willpower to choose to kill one man unfortunately the 5 would be dead
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| RazNinjaMike |
Posted on 06/14/2012 14:52:13
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Moderator
Posts: 4586
Joined: 20.11.10
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lol...this is easy.....BEEP THE FUCKING HORN |
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