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Debate 10: God
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| ninja |
Posted on 04/20/2012 08:41:00
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Super Admin
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I appreciate that this might be a sensitive discussion area for some people. Please, if you don't feel comfortable discussing your religious beliefs or are not prepared to have them argued against, don't participate in this debate. It is not necessary to express your personal opinion, and all points made can be taken as hypothetical.
So, the big question: Does God exist?
Some other questions to consider in your reply:
What, or who, is God?
Is there more than one God?
What evidence is there for the existence / non-existence of God? Is this sufficient to form a conclusion?
Should theists try to convince atheists otherwise?
Is the Bible true? Literally?
If God doesn't exist, why do so many people and so many texts say he does?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| Dudeman |
Posted on 04/20/2012 09:14:17
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Super Admin
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Does God Exist? In my opinion yes.
What or who is God? God is the creator of everything in the universe.
Is there more than one God? Idk.
Evidence? No one really knows if he exists or not, you have to have faith. But it's easier for me to believe a higher being created the universe than the universe started out as nothing, a random explosion happened, and the universe was born? like wth
Should we try to convince atheists otherwise? In my opinion Atheism is funny to me. Why not be nonreligious? Instead you don't believe in any God at all, what if one religion turns out to be true....and when you pass away, all you have to look forward to is going back to soil 
Bible? I believe the new testament alot more than the old of the bible. 2 of each animal on the planet on one boat? come on....
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| H4WK |
Posted on 04/20/2012 09:15:07
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Senior Member
Posts: 292
Joined: 03.02.12
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Well im gonna put it out there, I think God exists in 1 way but in another i dont, I dont think the bible is correct though just cause everyone that has read the bible or read bits out of it, never actually saw it and shit. I do think theres a god but theres a few things that i dont believe in sort of like the bible |
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| ninja |
Posted on 04/20/2012 09:53:12
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Super Admin
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dudeman1130 wrote:
Evidence? No one really knows if he exists or not, you have to have faith. But it's easier for me to believe a higher being created the universe than the universe started out as nothing, a random explosion happened, and the universe was born? like wth
I don't see the logic behind believing in the existence of God if no one knows that he exists. I also don't see how your argument solves the issue of the universe starting out as nothing: if God created the universe then who created God, his dad? It's an infinite regression which doesn't make sense. How can one 'create' a universe? There is significant evidence for the Big Bang theory, leading it to be accepted by the majority of the scientific community as the best cosmological model for the history of the universe.
A couple more questions:
Is God omnipotent (all powerful)?
Is God omni-benevolent (all loving/kind)?
Does God exist in any physical form?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| RazNinjaMike |
Posted on 04/20/2012 10:21:48
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Moderator
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God is a high level of imagination. When all else fail. Succeed with your imagination.
But if you need a physical thing... talk to chuck norris |
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| stunt1man |
Posted on 04/20/2012 10:58:36
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 2148
Joined: 20.02.12
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i do believe that god exist. but, i do not have enough evidence to support my thesis. what do you mean by enough evidence?
well, that means i don't have a live picture of a god to prove that god exist, but sure there are plenty of evidence on this planet earth or outside earth to prove his/her existence. who created infinite universe? who creates all the living beings? who created trees so that they can release oxygen so we can breathe. who created water so the living beings can drink to survive and the plants that absorb it, and the sun to provide warmth so we all can survive.
i could write a whole book but we short of time.
cannot tell if there is more than one god, but definitely can tell that all the religions are created by humans. god only has one religion and that is based on love, helping others. respect, and doing the right thing.
we, humans, separated ourselves using religions to separate our boundaries. god didn't create all the religions, we did.
sorry, i haven't read the bible so i wouldn't be able to give remarks about it.
definitely there is somebody powerful above there who is behind all these creations, destruction, and maintenance.
i don't think we can convince atheist people that god exist, since they have already made up their mind. i have talked to some atheist friends of mine, and there is no way you can convince them. but, you can always try. |
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| Sinder |
Posted on 04/20/2012 11:08:17
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1705
Joined: 30.11.11
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I like to believe he exist's but I dunno...
Why can't we see him? Adam and Eve.. I don't understand... we use to be apes, didn't we?
All confuses me.. but yea I like to believe
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 04/20/2012 11:46:54
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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ninja wrote:
Does God exist?
I believe no. I am an atheist and believe that, when you look at the bigger picture, take the evidence for God and the evidence for the scientific alternative, there's no competition. Charles Darwin wins hands down.
Think of all the religions in the world. Christianity may be the most widespread because early Christians felt the need to spread their beliefs around but what's to say that it's right and all other religions are wrong?
What evidence is there for the existence / non-existence of God? Is this sufficient to form a conclusion?
Should theists try to convince atheists otherwise?
As Ninja said, there is plenty of evidence for the Big Bang theory. Saying that the theory is ludicrous and dismissing it is close-minded. It's generally accepted among the scientific community and while I, and most people, couldn't explain it fully, scientists are not ones for taking things without evidence. Having said that, it's still only a theory.
Is the Bible true? Literally?
Literally? No. There are so many things that the Bible says, especially in the old testament, that can be proved otherwise. We know that the earth is four and a half billion years old, for a start.
But metaphorically? You might be onto something. I think that a good part of the Bible is a metaphor. I'm not sure what is represented, whether it's presented as 'based on a true story' or why the writers of the Bible chose to write it the way they did but maybe they just wanted to set out some ways to live your life and needed a powerful way to do that.
That's what I think Christianity is: a way of living your life, a way of treating people and a way of looking at things. I don't think it was meant to be taken literally and I don't think you should devote your life to it, or indeed any religion.
If God doesn't exist, why do so many people and so many texts say he does?
Maybe original ideas have been misunderstood and these beliefs have grown, I don't know. People want something to believe in. Many believe that life isn't complete without religion. For example...
dudeman1130 wrote:
Should we try to convince atheists otherwise? In my opinion Atheism is funny to me. Why not be nonreligious? Instead you don't believe in any God at all, what if one religion turns out to be true....and when you pass away, all you have to look forward to is going back to soil
What if one religion is true? How do you know which one? And who'd going to decide that? What if no religions are true? Life doesn't have to have some sort of hidden meaning. Maybe that's what people want to believe in. But the way I see it, we are a cosmic coincidence, shaped by the laws of nature and probability. We are an incredibly tiny speck in the universe. Let's find out more, try to understand our world, sure, but at the end of it we are on this handy planet. We're not sure how but I don't think that makes your life any worse.
We are life and while we have a life we may as well enjoy it. You can try to please God but I don't think heaven and hell are literal (I think they are metaphors for earth - if everyone behaves in a way that would get them into heaven, then Earth itself would be heaven - and if we all behaved like arseholes then Earth would be hell) but you've only got 80 years or so. Make the most of it. That seems an excellent, non-religious way of living to me.
And now to give my slant on Stuntman's questions:
who created infinite universe?
Who knows? Not me. It came into being from the Big Bang, possibly from something called the space/time foam, as far as we know.
who creates all the living beings?
There are a few theories for why life is on earth. For example, the exogenesis theory, that life came here form a meteorite or some such other projectile, or maybe something to do with proteins arranging themselves and a spark of electrical energy. As for the complex life we have now, that's evolution. Evolution is a simple but very clever idea which explains pretty much everything. In the billions of years since life emerged on this planet creatures have evolved via natural selection.
who created trees so that they can release oxygen so we can breathe.
Evolution.
who created water so the living beings can drink to survive and the plants that absorb it
Water is a chemical, formed from hydrogen and oxygen. The living things here have evolved to make use of it since it is very handy and in abundance.
and the sun to provide warmth so we all can survive.
You can read about star formation on Wikipedia.
i don't think we can convince atheist people that god exist, since they have already made up their mind. i have talked to some atheist friends of mine, and there is no way you can convince them. but, you can always try.
I've also tried the above arguments on Christians and that hasn't changed anything. We believe what we believe and some people talking to you is unlikely to change that. Unless you have some sort of epiphany, decide to change your life somehow or something else, you are likely to keep your current beliefs. Mostly, it's where and how we grew up. The US is a very religious country so a good number of you will probably believe in God. In the UK most of my friends are atheist.
But really, we're all different and we all need different things in your life. If you want to believe in God and that improves your life then good for you. If you're enjoying life less because of religion then you need to get out. Similarly, I am atheist and I'm fine with just enjoying my life. If someone finds religion and that improves their life then that is the positive side of it.
Atheist rant over.
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| ninja |
Posted on 04/20/2012 11:54:49
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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stunt1man wrote:
who created infinite universe? who creates all the living beings? who created trees so that they can release oxygen so we can breathe. who created water so the living beings can drink to survive and the plants that absorb it, and the sun to provide warmth so we all can survive.
I don't know whether you've studied any theories of evolution, but they provide a scientific reason for what you seem to be describing. The theory basically describes how all complex living organisms like humans and other animals evolved from very simple, unicellular, organisms. Darwin's theory of Natural Selection states that natural pressures force species to evolve. Feel free to Google these to read more, but I'll try to explain how they apply here.
It's not so much a case of trees being created in order for us to be able to breathe. In fact, we have reason to believe that trees and other 'plants' were around long before humans existed.
Rather, we (more specifically our ancestors) were able to evolve from much simpler micro-organisms due to the increased percentage of oxygen in the air, thanks to photosynthesising green plants, which themselves evolved from much simpler organisms. Using oxygen in aerobic respiration gave organisms more energy, and so larger, more complex organisms were able to evolve.
It is a similar case with water - it is an essential compound for life on Earth, with some very biologically important properties, but that doesn't necessitate it being created simply for the purpose of life on Earth. Perhaps if water wasn't so abundant, life would have evolved to take place without it - there might even be such life elsewhere in the universe.
You're also right in saying that the Sun is the basis of all energy on Earth, but that's not to say it was created FOR life on Earth. There are millions upon millions of stars just like the Sun in the known galaxy and we suspect that very few provide energy for life on their satellites (things which orbit them).
stunt1man wrote:
i don't think we can convince atheist people that god exist, since they have already made up their mind. i have talked to some atheist friends of mine, and there is no way you can convince them. but, you can always try.
I've met many previous athiests who are now preaching Christians.
Sinder wrote:
Adam and Eve.. I don't understand... we use to be apes, didn't we?
All confuses me.. but yea I like to believe
Adam & Eve and evolution are two conflicting theories on the origins of human existence:
Adam & Eve suggests that God created two humans: a man, Adam and a woman, Eve. They then populated the world through sexual reproduction. All animals and plants were also created by God. This is put forth in the first book of the Old Testament of the Bible, Genesis.
The theory of evolution suggests that we share a common ancestor with apes. In other words, we both evolved from the same species. The reason that we are different is due to different environmental pressures applied, and those organisms with advantageous adaptions (due to random mutation) survived and passed on their genes to the next generation. Eventually, the two sets of organisms could not interbreed and two different species were formed.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| weeshuggy |
Posted on 04/20/2012 13:11:19
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Wanker
Posts: 785
Joined: 23.06.11
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i believe god does exist, in what form i have no idea. I also believe in evolution and the big bang theory ect, cause lets be honest they did happen.
The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.
In other words the bible is a parabole, not meant to be taken literally. Yet you are meant to learn from it's teachings and in turn allowing you to see that god is real.
as for the whole i prayed and nothing happened argument. God gave us a thing called free will, he doesn't intervene. Our actions are ours and our's alone, and if evolution effects us in such a way that we dont like then it is our task to fix it with our free will, god has given us all the tools we need to control out lives. |
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| Carnage |
Posted on 04/20/2012 13:30:01
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Super Admin
Posts: 4245
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As a science major it would not be hard for you guys to surmise my opinion on the existence of god(s), so I will just say this. Most of my opinions that I hold on religion (not just Christianity) in general are very well summed up in the book "The god Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
I would like to say one thing about "faith" and how the people that believe in a god use it to justify their belief system. The bible itself defines faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of unseen things. This literally means that faith has to be the evidence for which there is no other empirical evidence. So when someone says they believe through faith they are really saying that they believe in something mostly for the sake of believing and despite any lack of evidence for and/or evidence to the contrary. So when you take faith out the equation, because it really shouldn't be used as evidence for a god, you are left with very little in the way of actual evidence for god.
Part of the reason that I rarely if ever debate gods existence with anyone is because of the faith issue. My mother is what I would call a religious fanatic and arguing gods existence with her is rather like talking to a wall because in the end she whips out her "faith card" which she expects will trump anything I can say, and we end at an impasse because I cannot argue against blind belief.
If you want to know more about the opinions I hold you can read that book i suggested or talk to me on teamspeak because there is too much to type lol.
"Hey guys, I just bought this thing called a sight ward...so it's GG." - MasterA in League of Legends
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| ninja |
Posted on 04/20/2012 13:55:10
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
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weeshuggy wrote:
i believe god does exist, in what form i have no idea. I also believe in evolution and the big bang theory ect, cause lets be honest they did happen.
The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.
In other words the bible is a parabole, not meant to be taken literally. Yet you are meant to learn from it's teachings and in turn allowing you to see that god is real.
as for the whole i prayed and nothing happened argument. God gave us a thing called free will, he doesn't intervene. Our actions are ours and our's alone, and if evolution effects us in such a way that we dont like then it is our task to fix it with our free will, god has given us all the tools we need to control out lives.
If you believe in the theory of Evolution and the Big Bang theory, then surely you believe that God didn't create the world (Earth), nor us? Yet you say that he gave us free will. Surely this is a contradiction in beliefs? You also claim that he doesn't intervene. So if he didn't create us and doesn't help us, what, then, is his purpose? If he's never shown his existence and never plans to, what reason does anybody have to believe he exists?
"The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable." - this is not true. There are many, many people who don't believe in God. If the Bible is wrong about this, it could well be wrong about the existence of God.
"The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him. " - I don't understand how the existence of God is obvious. My saving "it's obvious that fairies exist" makes it neither true, nor inexcusable not to believe in fairies. (I don't believe that fairies exist, by the way.)
"Our actions are ours and our's alone, and if evolution effects us in such a way that we dont like then it is our task to fix it with our free will, god has given us all the tools we need to control out lives." - How are new born babies in the poorest countries of the developing world supposed to use their 'free will' to survive? Surely, a kind God would intervene to help these children. Natural disasters are beyond our control - does God want thousands of people to die in earthquakes, tsunamis and the like?
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| Dudeman |
Posted on 04/20/2012 14:11:03
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The only evidence to support the Big Bang....Is that the Universe is growing (supposedly) at the same rate. Which we can't prove or disprove since we do not know a starting point/end point of the universe. So pretty much all of this stuff is just believing. Not going to lie, I do think God was thought up...so he could help you out. Pretty much give you the self confidence you need to do things. But I'm on the edge. I really do think there is a higher being up there. Of what religion, i'm not sure. I just make an educated guess 
I don't force my beliefs on anyone though lol. My best friend who I knew since 6th grade, took him till senior year of high school to realize I was Christian. I haven't been the best Christian of late though 
I believe in Evolution as well. Do I believe we evolved from Monkeys no. But that was a small part in Darwin's book. Idk if yall have read it....anywho the main part he was trying to say is all living things adapt to survive. Which in entirety is true.
Double Edit: I believe in God by choice. There are alot of things I've been through in my life that was so crazy that could only be described as a miracle that I am alive today. What would people that don't believe in God call it? Like 7 Freak of Nature incidents?
Edited by Dudeman on 04/20/2012 14:16:43
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| Carnage |
Posted on 04/20/2012 15:36:02
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Super Admin
Posts: 4245
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dudeman1130 wrote:
I believe in Evolution as well. Do I believe we evolved from Monkeys no.
I would really hope that you don't believe that we evolved from monkeys because that is completely untrue. Evolutionists do not claim to have evolved from monkeys we say that we share a common ancestor with them, a creature that modern day monkeys and humans can trace their lineage back to.
Just wanted to clarify that cause it bugs me lol.
"Hey guys, I just bought this thing called a sight ward...so it's GG." - MasterA in League of Legends
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 04/20/2012 15:46:42
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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There is more evidence than that, Dudeman. I'm sure Google will provide a fair amount of it. Search 'evidence for Big Bang Theory.'
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| iloveboobies |
Posted on 04/20/2012 16:06:02
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Senior Member
Posts: 313
Joined: 21.01.12
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There is no God. Just an explosion out of nothing which created the universe . Yeah of course there is a God , and his name is Jesus
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| Dudeman |
Posted on 04/20/2012 16:14:26
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Super Admin
Posts: 1277
Joined: 03.01.12
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If there is really no god.....I'm the luckiest man alive, but you would have to believe in luck. There's things I've been through that even the Physics doesn't make sense. I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering as well, I base almost everything on physics. I'll give you a true example. Falling off a height that is the equivalent of a three story building and falling just right, so that all you break is your arm. Go? Miracles don't exist in science so explain it.
Edit: Btw my Doc said that she could have done a case study on it. Although it fractured in two places, she said if I had landed on my legs chances are I would have broke one if not both of them, neck parapalegic. I don't remember the fall due to shock. I do remember getting up and my sis going "CHAD LOOK AT YOUR ARM!" lol Worst day of my life.
Edited by Dudeman on 04/20/2012 16:16:33
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 04/20/2012 16:16:53
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Well that's lucky. Everything happens sometimes. And I'm not sure why God would save you from that but not do anything about the rest of the world. Like tsunamis.
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| Dudeman |
Posted on 04/20/2012 16:19:40
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Super Admin
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I was going to post my near death experiences, but since not everyone here is of age. And I don't want anyone to look at me differently I won't. I was that typical college student. Going from High School to College, you tend to branch out alot and want to try new things. It does catch up to you later.
Edit: P.S. Your not getting it Hat. The way I landed, and in my condition would have been near impossible. And falling from that height and not only surviving, but minor (in my opinion) injuries is ridiculous. Then again your right, I have no idea why (in my opinion again) God saved me. But it defies physics and I can't explain it.....so ya.
Edited by Dudeman on 04/20/2012 16:23:18
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 04/20/2012 16:41:53
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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I'd say that there must have been a way for you to survive with minor injuries because you did. It can't have defied physics because... well, it's physics. You were just very, very lucky. As you say, thankfully, you fell just right. But lots of people aren't so lucky and fall wrong.
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