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Debate 10: God
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 06/10/2012 03:58:18
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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Mr Shan wrote:
ZA BrickSquad wrote:
Mr Shan wrote:
Big bang is not true. A explosion out of nothing did not create the galaxy.
It wasn't out of nothing, that's all I know. Cuz I'm being completely honest and logical.
" God created the heaven and earth" meaning God created the universe so you saying you believe in the big bang theory it is contradicting your belief in Christianity.
I don't know the truth, and no one does, but it's the most logical one. Heaven and hell might be other universes? Outside of ours most likely.
I don't believe in all of what the Big Bang theory says. The theory I believe is us as humans beings being curious and trying to figure where we can from, all the advancement in technology and intelligence got us to the point where we figured out how everything got to place,, but cannot figure out what was before, because there is no proof.
I personally believe the Big Bang Theory is one of the obstacles God throws at most humans to see if they would trust in Man for the answer of life/origin of everything or have faith in God until the end of the test (death). |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 12:31:08
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Why does God test us? Why is the criteria for passing life believing he exists? Didn't the Devil try to test Jesus in the desert or something and Jesus was all like 'God's not meant to be tested!' God can test us but we can't test God, we're just supposed to 'have faith'? And if we're supposed to have this blind faith, why would God also present to us a reasonable and logical alternative to Himself? To trick us? So that we go to this alternate universe, heaven, and get told by St Peter 'Aha! Fooled you, didn't we? You didn't believe in God because the Big Bang seemed a more logical conclusion! Well, now your punishment for being reasonable and logical is getting sent to hell!'
It doesn't make sense.
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 06/10/2012 14:07:53
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Why does God test us? Why is the criteria for passing life believing he exists? Didn't the Devil try to test Jesus in the desert or something and Jesus was all like 'God's not meant to be tested!' God can test us but we can't test God, we're just supposed to 'have faith'? And if we're supposed to have this blind faith, why would God also present to us a reasonable and logical alternative to Himself? To trick us? So that we go to this alternate universe, heaven, and get told by St Peter 'Aha! Fooled you, didn't we? You didn't believe in God because the Big Bang seemed a more logical conclusion! Well, now your punishment for being reasonable and logical is getting sent to hell!'
It doesn't make sense.
-Why does God test us? I don't know.
-I didn't understand that second question.
-I don't know about that story, never heard of it.
-Why would we test our creator? He's testing us to see if we believe in him or the others he created us with.
-There is no other reasonable and logical alternative to himself, unless you know, tell me? (Or did I read the question wrong?)
-Try not to bring human people into this, cuz remember, we can't really trust in "Man" so I don't even trust the Bible...
-I do believe in God, but the Big Bang Theory is kinda right, but not completely. That explosion in the beginning, isn't it logical that it was God creating the Universe with powers we do not know about or explain?
Edited by ZA BrickSquad on 06/10/2012 14:10:51 |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 14:16:55
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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The second question meant 'why do we have to believe in God to past the test?'
http://en.wikiped..._of_Christ - "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.'"(a reference to Deuteronomy 6:16)
He's testing us to see if we believe so it's only natural that we should want to test whether he exists.
To me the Big Bang seems the most logical and reasonable alternative. Sure, we don't understand everything about it but there is at least evidence for it and the bits we don't know are just things we don't know yet and they're things which one day we may be able to test and discover.
Not sure what you meant by that bit.
Is it logical that a greater power caused the big bang? No, it's not the logical solution. It is one solution that can't be disproved but to me doesn't seem the most likely explanation.
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 06/10/2012 14:29:02
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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The Hat of Love wrote:
The second question meant 'why do we have to believe in God to past the test?'
http://en.wikiped..._of_Christ - "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.'"(a reference to Deuteronomy 6:16)
He's testing us to see if we believe so it's only natural that we should want to test whether he exists.
To me the Big Bang seems the most logical and reasonable alternative. Sure, we don't understand everything about it but there is at least evidence for it and the bits we don't know are just things we don't know yet and they're things which one day we may be able to test and discover.
Not sure what you meant by that bit.
Is it logical that a greater power caused the big bang? No, it's not the logical solution. It is one solution that can't be disproved but to me doesn't seem the most likely explanation.
-I'm really not sure, that's why I said before if you live your life all good but you're atheist, MAYBE he might give you a pass. But I really don't know and no one does :/
-Us humans being curious is natural, well those words came from a "Man" right? Who knows if someone changed them over the years, or were not the EXACT words that God said.
-There is a limit until we can test Hat. Hat, when in the future do you think we will have the technology to "see" or "go" before the Big Bang ever happened?
-I said it's better not to make reference, such as the Bible or anything made by Man. Example: bible, how can we trust it's 100% word-by-word what God said?
-Okay, I respect your opinion. But let me ask you a question, what do YOU think made the Big Bang, or caused it, or what ever you believe? |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 15:46:10
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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As I say we don't know what was before the Big Bang. The theory I have heard is something called the space-time foam involving many 'bubbles' of stuff. If you want a more in depth explanation I can go and get the book I read. The main difference I think between my belief and your belief is that some day it's possible that we will come up with a theory that can be proven - there is real evidence for the Big Bang. There isn't really any evidence for God, other than that he explains things simply when there are things we don't yet know.
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 06/10/2012 15:52:04
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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The Hat of Love wrote:
As I say we don't know what was before the Big Bang. The theory I have heard is something called the space-time foam involving many 'bubbles' of stuff. If you want a more in depth explanation I can go and get the book I read. The main difference I think between my belief and your belief is that some day it's possible that we will come up with a theory that can be proven - there is real evidence for the Big Bang. There isn't really any evidence for God, other than that he explains things simply when there are things we don't yet know.
I rather wait until we chill one day in person to have hours to talk and discuss. 
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 16:43:45
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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You'll get the plane here will you?
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 06/10/2012 17:24:28
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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The Hat of Love wrote:
As I say we don't know what was before the Big Bang. The theory I have heard is something called the space-time foam involving many 'bubbles' of stuff
Quantum foam?
Alright, I have a bunch of semi random stuff to say that doesn't quite relate with each other, but I'll say it anyway
The big bang theory isn't the only theory about the origin of the universe, just the most widely known.
Its funny, it seems that every time we think we've answered one question, about a billion more pop up. Has the universe always been? No. How did it pop up? The big bang theory. What is that? The expansion of a bunch of cosmic stuff. What was there before? What caused this to expand? Were did it come from? Are there other universes? Why did it happen?
Edited by ZA Luna on 06/10/2012 17:45:19
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 17:38:44
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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He may have but as I say I think that's not the most logical solution. What is? Well I dont' know.
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 06/10/2012 17:48:28
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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I edited it xD
Wrapping up what I was saying:
The universe is full of mysteries. God may or may not be real. No ones scientifically proven it, yes. But no ones exactly disproven it, have they? I choose to believe He exists.
Edited by ZA Luna on 06/10/2012 17:50:46
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/10/2012 17:56:55
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 06/10/2012 18:30:24
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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touche.
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| PirateKing |
Posted on 06/10/2012 23:19:34
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Numpty
Posts: 1128
Joined: 01.03.12
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i can prove god exists. if you xfire me i will prove it to you lol. nd that its jesus christ nd that he is alive nd ruling in our hearts today. he made us in the beginning nd he always will love us nd forgive us. he is the creator of all nd everything he made was good
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| ledapus |
Posted on 06/11/2012 01:03:40
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Senior Member
Posts: 423
Joined: 05.11.11
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if you can prove he exists post for everyone to see because so far there is no evidence to back up a gods existance.
I am willing to accept the fact that I may be wrong and that there might be a god however until I am given solid evidence of his existance i will choose to remain believing the side that actually has proof......
-Xfire: ledapus-
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LEDAPIE FOR THE WIIIIINNNNNNN!!!!!!!
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| jaygee |
Posted on 06/11/2012 03:20:19
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Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 11.06.12
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Ok Mr Sophisticated Athiests, can you prove God doesn't exist? |
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| Joshkl2013 |
Posted on 06/11/2012 10:00:52
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Numpty
Posts: 1443
Joined: 26.05.12
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And there's the problem. This shit is like a stalemated game of chess; neither will submit, and the game ends inconclusively due to lack of evidence on either side.
I just wanna say, regarding that Nern Equilibrium or whatever, you don't have to go to church to be a Christian. In fact, the last time God told people to go to church was the old testament.
The church is the epitome of hypocricy. They tell people to follow certain old testament rules (go to church), and they ignore others (do not eat pork or meat with blood in it.) They spend money on lavishness, and many times, their "missions" are vacations for the top church members.
The church also changes the Bible based on their individual needs. The book once spoke of early humans other than Adam and Eve, but the Catholic church edited that out, for they felt it would be less controversial, and without it, they could make people submit to them.
There are other churches that indoctrinate people. They spread their own political agenda, and they brainwash others. The church I went to not long ago recently had the pastor buy a bunch of stage props: a tv which he could put a verse on every time there was a service, and they Alslo bought new projection boards. Totally unnecessary, especially as the walls behind them were white and flat. All this because he wanted to film his services so he could become famous. (You don't need all that stuff to give a good service and still
make videos to post online.)
This pastor also tells people that they must donate to the church to go to heaven. Not only is this anti-Christian, it is anti-Bible. The bible states that people should donate money to charity in the new testament. In fact, nowhere does it say the 10% that the church says you must give.
I'm ranting now... But my point is, might as well use that equilibrium. You DON'T need to go to church as a Christian, and you lose nothing, especially if God exists and going to heaven or hell depends on simply believing in him truly.
Edited by Joshkl2013 on 06/11/2012 10:07:54
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| Joshkl2013 |
Posted on 06/11/2012 10:24:39
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Numpty
Posts: 1443
Joined: 26.05.12
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Also, you can believe in the bible, and evolution too. God said put all the animals on the Arc, but, if you take every specie alive today, the mass wouldn't fit if you put ONE in the Arc, much less TWO.
Animals evolve, plain and simple. For example, if you take a goldfish and breed it in the dark for several generations, It will turn pale and will lose its eyes. There are many proofs of evolution. The human mind evolves also. Every subsequent generation of any animal in a non-constant enviornment will change! And this is one major flaw with the church: they are unwilling to accept evolution, even though the Bible never says it isn't true!
The only difference in 'Christian' evolution is the lack of a belief in the big bang (which I can prove wrong). When compared to that, creationism is much more likely. God created species. These species split into more species. We have evidence of animals going extinct through history. If God created them all, Noah would have needed hundreds of Arcs.
The Big Bang is incorrect:
Everything "started at a single point of matter." This is false. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Some scientists say: "it was created from energy, as energy could turn into matter!" True, but energy cannot be created not destroyed, also. The matter for the big bang HAD to have been created. We know God didn't create this, for Genesis 1:1 says, "God created the Heavens and the Earth."
So, say we have this mass of super dense matter. No bloody clue how it got there, but it's there. It would NOT explode. According to physics, a body at rest stats at rest unless acted on by an outside force. You MUST have an outside force, for it would be constant, for an object that dense could not explode, implode, or create its own energy due to its own enormous gravity. Another "magical matter dot" would have to crash into it.
Thanks for reading this, wrote it myself, PM me any questions you have.
*EDIT*
@Hat: While The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy (H2G2) is an excellent book, it is a work of fiction and, as such, can not be used as fact. Otherwise, we would already have the Infinite Improbability Drive, and you could get a nice burger today at the Restraunt at the End of the Universe. The explanation was incredibly amusing, though, and I MUST say Touché XD.
Edited by Joshkl2013 on 06/11/2012 10:31:52
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/11/2012 11:54:33
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Your argument against the Big Bang is flawed. Of course it's true that matter can't be created and I realise this isn't the most eloquent argument but: do you think that hasn't crossed the minds of scientists? The Big Bang is the most widely accepted theory on the creation of the universe, how likely is it that no scientist has at one point said 'hang on, surely matter can't be created?' And if he didn't get a good answer back, why is the theory so widespread?
Your argument is somewhat self-defeating - you say you know the God didn't cause the Big Bang because the Bible says he created the heavens and the earth but you've just said that the Bible is edited and can't be fully relied upon. Do you also think it's true that the world is about five thousand years old and that there really was an ark with two of each animal on it and the entire earth became flooded? Because humans as they exist today have only been around for a few tens of thousands of years and you can see through archeology and palaeontology that animals have been evolving for a lot longer than that. At no point in the last 100,000 years were there so few species that you could fit them on an ark described in the Bible and if the rest of the species somehow died (a mass extinction event there's no evidence for) then there's no way they could evolve so quickly to result in the diversity of today. And how did lemurs get on Madagascar if the ark landed in Turkey? What I'm trying to say is that the Bible isn't always right.
Now, another point I want to pick you up on is that the Big Bang was not an explosion, simply a rapid expansion. The universe started expanding at the speed of light from this very dense point. This is from Physic of the Impossible by Michio Kaku:
In quantum cosmology the universe started out as a quantum fluctuation of the vacuum, that is, as a tiny bubble in the space-time foam. Most baby universes in the space-time foam have a big bang and then immediately have a Big Crunch afterward. This is why we never see them, because they are extremely small and short-lived, dancing in and out of the vacuum. This means that even 'nothing' is boiling with baby universes popping in an out of existence, but on a scale that is too small to detect with out instruments,But for some reason, one of the bubbles in the space-time foam did not recollapse into a Big Crunch but kept on expanding. This is out universe ...
The theory that our universe came from the 'nothingness' of the space-time foam might seem to be totally untestable, but it is consistent with several simple observations. First, many physicists have pointed out that the total amount of positive charges and negative charges in our universe comes out to exactly zero, at least to within experimental accuracy. We take it fort granted that in outer space gravity is the dominant force, yet this is only because the positive and negative charges cancel out precisely. If there was the slightest imbalance between positive and negative charges on the earth, it might be sufficient to rip the earth apart, overcoming the gravitational force that holds the earth together. One simple way to explain why there is this balance between positive and negative charges is to assume that our universe came from 'nothing' and nothing has zero charge.
Second, out universe has zero spin. Although for years Kurt Goedel tried to show that the universe was spinning by adding up the spins of various galaxies, astronomers today believe that the total spin of the universe is zero. The phenomenon would be easily explained if the universe came from 'nothing' since nothing has zero spin.
Third, our universe's coming from nothing would help to explain why the total matter-energy content of the universe is so small, perhaps even zero. When we add up the positive energy of matter and the negative energy associated with gravity, the two seem to cancel each other out, According to general relativity, if the universe is closed and finite, then the total amount of matter-energy in the universe should be exactly zero. (If our universe is open and infinite this does not have to be true, but inflationary theory does seem to indicate that the total amount of matter-energy in our universe is remarkably small.)
More about the space-time foam here: http://en.wikiped...antum_foam.
It's not as though the Big Bang doesn't make sense. It is a decent theory. It makes sense. And your argument which you wrote yourself does not stand up to the majoity of the world's scientists.
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| Joshkl2013 |
Posted on 06/11/2012 12:48:09
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Numpty
Posts: 1443
Joined: 26.05.12
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My point in saying that [God didn't create the big bang], was that, God created the universe, and that he COULD have created the matter for the big bang, but the Bible says otherwise. Also, I didn't say it was entirely incorrect, just that it was edited.
The Bible was made in a time when there wasn't sientific jargon such as "quantum foam" and the like, so even if he'd did create the big bang, for simplicity's sake, the book would say the same thing.
Regarding Quantum Foam: it doesn't explain the creation of matter or energy, which is also physically impossible. It sounds as if the whole theory is based upon rips in the continuum. Basically, matter coming from the future, becoming super dense, and exploding.
This just doesn't make sense logically.
Also: my explanation on the big bang was not something I expected to "stand up to" scientist opinion. But, like I said, the inconsistency of where the matter/energy came from stands, even in the space-foam argument.
See if you can find an answer on it, and post it please...
Also, the proofs that the space time foam guy posted are something taught in basic physics. If something explodes evenly, due to physics, the spin equals zero. The big bang SHOULD have exploded evenly and with constant velocity, making a ring of stars/planets instead of a randomly distributed one.
Also, with charge, if you rub a balloon on your head and it becomes charged, your hair has the swim charge but opposite direction (- if the balloon is +). It doesn't belong in his theory.
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