I've read a few posts and skimmed over some in this thread their is so much to read. I don't think i'll join in on this one but i have a few things to add
I think that for someone to decide what they believe in they need to have read the full Bible. I haven't myself only certain parts and chapters but Ik its important to me to read the whole thing one day.
The Bible cannot be taken is such a literal way that it was back when it was written, Times and cultures have changed so everything in it isn't the same as it is today. We still do not treat women almost like slaves or other things that back in the time that it was written was a accepted part of society.
God is ment to be a such a high being that it is beyond human understanding. We are not supposed to ask why doesn't he do this or why isn't it proven, God is supposed to be beyond our intellect to even begin comprehending. And he has given humans "Free will" meaning our lives are not controlled by him and we are influenced by what is good and evil and can act by ourselves. Any misfortunes are caused by US not God.
hm i can't remember what else i was going to say i may bring it up later if i remember xD
to understand god, play the sims: serious gamers start out making the perfectly customized character. they try to help him in everyway... eventually the guy starts breaking down and its a pain in the ass to get him working to your expectations. further into the sims, the guy will simply lose (as in you need to restart the game). eventually you'll enjoy watching him suffer.
as for what i believe in, yes i do believe there is a god (dwelling further, i dont believe in a 3 in 1 god, but rather they were seperate entities... look up arianism for more details, funny my aunt called me a heretic lol)
Evidence of god, while i do not have evidence in the exsistence of god, there is no 100% actual proof in any direction for or against the idea. While paleontologists (people who study have prooven that organisms do "evolve" (change or mutate for certain beneficial purposes) there is also not a sufficient amount of proof either way (evolution is still technically a theory not a scientific law)
Why does god allow bad things to happen. In my opinion, god is testing people. Giving them struggles in life to test "faith". if god were to suddenly stop all bad things from happening, that would proove that god exsists. if god exsists only through faith (belief without proof), by revealing that he (assuming god is masculineish) then god with disproove himself and not exsist.
On how god works, is that he created the wworld, but is outside of it (like a biologist with a container of bacteria, he can influence the bacteria, but is not amongst them; or like an ant farm, you may give the ants what they need, but you are not part of the ant's equation). That is how Satan (the devil, one of god's creations ironically) was able to break free of god's control. They werent mindless drones, but were simply powerful creations who could think for themselves. They influence the world like a rogue scientist messing arround with his superiors' and colleague's experiments. As such, god did not wish to remove satan (the devil) is allowed to operate, as a way to test one's faith (carnage as you like to quote individual bible verses to suit your needs, read the story of job.... entirely so tha t you dont jump to "oh god is just being the world's biggest dick just to make a point to satan... oh wait he is but still, god makes up for it at the end of the book)
in conclusion, even if there is no god, god or the belief in one is a symbol of hope for many. Even when things arent pleasing (plague, famine, natural disasters, death etc), the very idea for people that they have eternal comfort aaway from the pain of our world is quite an attrative belief (in science its just: you live, you die idea, now i'm a fan of science myself dont get me wrong, but the thought of myself dying and getting nothing out of this plane of exsistence really blows). People can be quite stubborn in this belief. Famous examples are the jews during the holocaust, many of whom refused to give up their faith in a god (im not jewish myself but that takes balls) or the early christians who refused to give up on their beliefs and were crucified or fed to animals. Now i cant proove there is a god or some higher being, but if people are willing to die for their beliefs says something (are you willing to die for science, that shark ate you for your nutrients etc).
Shawn If I have to keep deleting your dumb pointless comments from threads then I will make it so you can't post. You need to follow the rules of the debate threads. If you don't want to do that then stop posting in them. These threads are not meant to be hate spamming threads they are for civilized intelligent discussion. Numpty has already warned you and If we see it again your account will be banned.
"Hey guys, I just bought this thing called a sight ward...so it's GG." - MasterA in League of Legends
Drkinferno wrote:
Evidence of god, while i do not have evidence in the exsistence of god, there is no 100% actual proof in any direction for or against the idea. While paleontologists (people who study have prooven that organisms do "evolve" (change or mutate for certain beneficial purposes) there is also not a sufficient amount of proof either way (evolution is still technically a theory not a scientific law)
In my opinion, the only true proofs are in mathematics and can only be constructed through logical deduction. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to talk of concepts outside of that domain being proved. However, science provides a way for us to better comprehend the world around us. We make many observations, infer a theory from that, and then test to see if it upholds.
There's not much point in going through all the evidence here since it will be explained better and in more detail all over the Internet and in many books (which I'm sure you've read before claiming that there's no evidence). However, the observations that have been made are from such a wide spectrum, ranging from physiological analysis of fossil records, to microscopy of cells, and DNA analysis. These results all suggest that present day organisms have evolved from those in the past, and that similar organisms tend to share a common ancestor.
For me, this provides a reasonable explanation of how complex life has come about and it certainly seems more believable than the theory set out in Genesis, which I have yet to see ANY evidence for, despite being around for a lot longer than modern theories of evolution.
Besides, the logical conclusion to draw from insufficient evidence (which you claim we have), would surely be that the conjecture is false? If I conjecture that exactly 100,000,000,000 light years North of where I'm sitting, there's a green alien having a bath, and can find no evidence to suggest this is true or false, I'd be crazy to hold it as truth!
Drkinferno wrote:
Why does god allow bad things to happen. In my opinion, god is testing people. Giving them struggles in life to test "faith". if god were to suddenly stop all bad things from happening, that would proove that god exsists. if god exsists only through faith (belief without proof), by revealing that he (assuming god is masculineish) then god with disproove himself and not exsist.
Killing a baby surely cannot be a test of faith - the baby probably doesn't not even know of God's supposed existence, let alone doubts it.
Carnage has already pretty much said what I would say about faith. A concept (or thing) which relies solely on faith is then surely a figment of one's imagination. Children often believe in Santa Claus, simply because they are told he exists. For them, at that time, he does exist because they have faith in him. Of course, when they grow up they realise that they were being lied to, and they scrap their faith. I think that this provides an argument for the insignificance of having faith in something's existence. Besides, anything which can disprove itself must surely not exist.
Drkinferno wrote:
in conclusion, even if there is no god, god or the belief in one is a symbol of hope for many. Even when things arent pleasing (plague, famine, natural disasters, death etc), the very idea for people that they have eternal comfort aaway from the pain of our world is quite an attrative belief (in science its just: you live, you die idea, now i'm a fan of science myself dont get me wrong, but the thought of myself dying and getting nothing out of this plane of exsistence really blows).
Interesting that you raise this, because it is often used as an example against the existence of God: thus God is simply a creation of humans (ironic, huh?) to make them feel better about their lives.
Drkinferno wrote:
People can be quite stubborn in this belief. Famous examples are the jews during the holocaust, many of whom refused to give up their faith in a god (im not jewish myself but that takes balls) or the early christians who refused to give up on their beliefs and were crucified or fed to animals. Now i cant proove there is a god or some higher being, but if people are willing to die for their beliefs says something (are you willing to die for science, that shark ate you for your nutrients etc).
People being stubborn doesn't prove anything. Some people found it hard to believe the Earth is round, not flat. I hope you wouldn't doubt that fact.
Many Jews also, like Hobo said, gave up their 'faith' in a God, who clearly didn't exist since he wouldn't help them in their injustice.
I'm not willing to die for science because I don't need to do that to give weight to scientific theories. There are plenty of better ways to go about testing a theory than suicide.
I can't put Ninja's arguments any better so I can only echo them. Just because a book and the people who believe it tell you that God exists doesn't mean you should have faith in that.
"You have to believe in God or he'll send you into a fiery abyss!"
"What? But I just want to enjoy my life. What evidence do you have for the existance of this God?"
"I don't have any but this is a really good book."
"Golly, that's compelling. Better start praying."
Like I said in my first post, some people believe in religion because they don't like the idea that after death nothing happens to them. It might also give some direction to your life. That's fine but I think it's the only real benefit of religion. Your faith might make you a better person (might) but I don't think there's any reason you'd believe that God exists unless millions of people were telling you otherwise. But then millions of people like Justin Bieber. I'm perfectly comfortable with only living my life while I'm alive. All the more reason to enjoy it and not devote it to a deity.
I think that eventually, with the growing atheist population, humanity will move on from religion. Even Christianity will be all but forgotten. And none of those people who have forgotten and shunned God will be sent to hell. And, considering the number of wars, hatred, etc. that have been fought over religion, I for one think that this will make the world better.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
The Hat of Love wrote:
I think that eventually, with the growing atheist population, humanity will move on from religion. Even Christianity will be all but forgotten. And none of those people who have forgotten and shunned God will be sent to hell. And, considering the number of wars, hatred, etc. that have been fought over religion, I for one think that this will make the world better.
so for god to be prooven, he'd have to rain fire down from the sky just to proove he exsists? sort of like shooting a drunkard just to proove to him you have a gun?
There is no evidence for God other than belief. And I don't accept belief as evidence. 'You have to have faith' and 'it's God testing us' have been said so many times before by Christians and they still don't make any more sense to me. They just seem easy ways to get out of arguments with atheists.
I'm not asking God to prove he exists because I don't believe he exists anyway.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
Drkinferno wrote:
so for god to be prooven, he'd have to rain fire down from the sky just to proove he exsists? sort of like shooting a drunkard just to proove to him you have a gun?
You can show him the gun without actually shooting him with it. In fact, shooting him wouldn't really help because he'd be dead so wouldn't be able to use his newly acquired knowledge.
I don't know how God would prove his existence because he doesn't really make sense. It's like me saying, "I believe 1=0": I can't prove it because it doesn't make sense. Therefore it's untrue.
thought i should provide some humor where everybody is tensed debating on god's existence.
suppose
x = y.
Then x2 = xy. (multiplying by x on both sides)
x2 - y2 = xy - y2. (substracting y2 on both sides)
(x+y) (x-y) = y(x-y) formula
Dividing by (x-y), obtain
x + y = y.
Since x = y, we see that
2 y = y.
Thus 2 = 1, since we started with y nonzero.
Subtracting 1 from both sides,
1 = 0.
god exists
So, the big question: Does God exist?
In my opinion, yes
Some other questions to consider in your reply:
What, or who, is God?
The creator of the universe.
Is there more than one God?
No
What evidence is there for the existence / non-existence of God? Is this sufficient to form a conclusion?
There is no hardcore evidence, belief in God is a faith-based system. That being said, the Bible knew many things that during its time were not well known, and it even predicted things that would happen today (for example, the creation of Israel following WW2) Its all just freedom of choice. If God were to give us undeniable evidence of his existance, then we would all believe unconditionally, thats not what he wants. He wants us to believe, all the while dealing with the struggles of believing in something that you can't see. To go further, I have seen things happen to people around me that I could only explain as being touched by God. Personal experiences often shape beliefs.
Should theists try to convince atheists otherwise?
In my opinion, no. I believe that as a Christian, it is my job to spread the word of God, but its not my job to force people to believe it. If they know the true message of God, and reject it, then so be it. Opinions are opinions, and they more than often cannot be changed.
Is the Bible true? Literally?
Well, there are multiple things in the bible that suggest so. The bible knew many things that at that time were not general knowledge, and it has prophesied many things that have come true, even today.
If God doesn't exist, why do so many people and so many texts say he does?
That's where the whole thing of opinion comes in. He does exist, but because there is no concrete proof that he does, there will be dissidents.
I will go even further and point out some misconceptions of the bible.
The Earth is 6000-10000 years old.
FALSE. This is what, i forget the name of the committee, decided, it never says in the Bible how old the Earth is. It never says how long a day is to God, and in many parts of the Bible it says "time passed" and we don't know how much time.
Homosexuality is an unforgivable sin and you cannot be a Christian if you're gay.
FALSE. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as lying, and it never says in the bible that homosexuals will go to hell, and not say immediately afterward something to the extent of "but you have been saved"
Edited by Sarge on 04/21/2012 14:40:45
Drkinferno wrote:
so for god to be prooven, he'd have to rain fire down from the sky just to proove he exsists? sort of like shooting a drunkard just to proove to him you have a gun?
You can show him the gun without actually shooting him with it. In fact, shooting him wouldn't really help because he'd be dead so wouldn't be able to use his newly acquired knowledge.
I don't know how God would prove his existence because he doesn't really make sense. It's like me saying, "I believe 1=0": I can't prove it because it doesn't make sense. Therefore it's untrue.
so white is black, cats are dogs, , fish fly in sky and birds swim in the sea
2+2= 5 that elephant in the room is there but we arent acknowledging him, santa was real... until i explained he wasnt ... man so many parents were out for blood.... i was running out of the mall as fast as i could
back to topic
however i can see where everyone else is coming from: if harry potter does not exsist, who wrote harry potter? if the lord of the rings never happened (aka the silmarilion) who wrote the lord of the rings? If god did not write the bible, and man did, then that is the biggest troll ever (heres out it couldve happened according to the dogbert's theory of etiquette) okay what may have happened, was that these cave men were extremely bored one day. they say to each other "hey lets make up religon" basically they create an entire system of beliefs that they know to be 100% not true and full of shit. They indroctonated the children into this "religon" and made them follow a set of laws and beliefs. When the children were to grow up(age six in those days, as no one really lived to be old, age 40 was probally considered 900 years old), they'd reveal the whole thing as a joke (remember, this was before televsion, radio, and music were created to entertain us, they were just being resourceful). Well then came a pissed off mammoth that killed everyone off, except for the kids, they never learned that they were lied to, and grew up thinking what was told to them was completely true. Thats how religon started. (amateur cultural/sociological anthropologist ftw) as such, they were fiercely attached to their beliefs. They'd probally meet other tribes of cave people whose parents did the same joke (remember, people have been sharing ideas for years... cough the wheel, spear, bow and arrow) , but were taught something else, now imagine if they found out they were lied too just before they took an arrow to the knee?
The Hat of Love wrote:
Ninja, can you find where that maths has been twisted?
Yes. Division by zero is undefined, so when you divide by (x-y) you break maths.
Sorry about the off topic, but here's another one, for you:
Define i = sqrt(-1)
Then i^2 = -1
Note: ^ indicates a power, sqrt() indicated the square root of the expression in brackets.
sqrt(-1) = sqrt(-1)
sqrt(-1/1) = sqrt(1/-1)
Simplify:
sqrt(-1)/sqrt(1) = sqrt(1)/sqrt(-1)
Since the square root of 1 is 1:
sqrt(-1) = 1/sqrt(-1)
Using our definition from above:
i = 1/i
Multiply throughout by i:
i^2 = 1
Therefore
-1 = 1
OMGWTFBBQHAX
Edited by ninja on 04/22/2012 10:07:35
Drkinferno wrote:
however i can see where everyone else is coming from: if harry potter does not exsist, who wrote harry potter? if the lord of the rings never happened (aka the silmarilion) who wrote the lord of the rings? If god did not write the bible, and man did, then that is the biggest troll ever (heres out it couldve happened according to the dogbert's theory of etiquette) okay what may have happened, was that these cave men were extremely bored one day. they say to each other "hey lets make up religon" basically they create an entire system of beliefs that they know to be 100% not true and full of shit. They indroctonated the children into this "religon" and made them follow a set of laws and beliefs. When the children were to grow up(age six in those days, as no one really lived to be old, age 40 was probally considered 900 years old), they'd reveal the whole thing as a joke (remember, this was before televsion, radio, and music were created to entertain us, they were just being resourceful). Well then came a pissed off mammoth that killed everyone off, except for the kids, they never learned that they were lied to, and grew up thinking what was told to them was completely true. Thats how religon started. (amateur cultural/sociological anthropologist ftw) as such, they were fiercely attached to their beliefs. They'd probally meet other tribes of cave people whose parents did the same joke (remember, people have been sharing ideas for years... cough the wheel, spear, bow and arrow) , but were taught something else, now imagine if they found out they were lied too just before they took an arrow to the knee?
So now you'd admitting that the Bible might be fiction, just like Harry Potter and The Lord of The Rings? That could well be true, although I don't think that cave men would have written the Bible, perhaps later.
The Hat of Love wrote:
Ninja, can you find where that maths has been twisted?
Yes. Division by zero is undefined, so when you divide by (x-y) you break maths.
Sorry about the off topic, but here's another one, for you:
Define i = sqrt(-1)
Then i^2 = -1
Note: ^ indicates a power, sqrt() indicated the square root of the expression in brackets.
sqrt(-1) = sqrt(-1)
sqrt(-1/1) = sqrt(1/-1)
Simplify:
sqrt(-1)/sqrt(1) = sqrt(1)/sqrt(-1)
Since the square root of 1 is 1:
sqrt(-1) = 1/sqrt(-1)
Using our definition from above:
i = 1/i
Multiply throughout by i:
i^2 = 1
Therefore
-1 = 1
OMGWTFBBQHAX
Why is 1 on the bottom in one and the top in the other sqrt(-1) = sqrt(-1)
sqrt(-1/1) = sqrt(1/-1)
Drkinferno wrote:
however i can see where everyone else is coming from: if harry potter does not exsist, who wrote harry potter? if the lord of the rings never happened (aka the silmarilion) who wrote the lord of the rings? If god did not write the bible, and man did, then that is the biggest troll ever (heres out it couldve happened according to the dogbert's theory of etiquette) okay what may have happened, was that these cave men were extremely bored one day. they say to each other "hey lets make up religon" basically they create an entire system of beliefs that they know to be 100% not true and full of shit. They indroctonated the children into this "religon" and made them follow a set of laws and beliefs. When the children were to grow up(age six in those days, as no one really lived to be old, age 40 was probally considered 900 years old), they'd reveal the whole thing as a joke (remember, this was before televsion, radio, and music were created to entertain us, they were just being resourceful). Well then came a pissed off mammoth that killed everyone off, except for the kids, they never learned that they were lied to, and grew up thinking what was told to them was completely true. Thats how religon started. (amateur cultural/sociological anthropologist ftw) as such, they were fiercely attached to their beliefs. They'd probally meet other tribes of cave people whose parents did the same joke (remember, people have been sharing ideas for years... cough the wheel, spear, bow and arrow) , but were taught something else, now imagine if they found out they were lied too just before they took an arrow to the knee?
So now you'd admitting that the Bible might be fiction, just like Harry Potter and The Lord of The Rings? That could well be true, although I don't think that cave men would have written the Bible, perhaps later.
nein, i'm just seeing it from non-believers' side.... or something like it
