GrinReaper wrote:
You want evidence? My dad's back was hurting for years...God healed just a few months ago.
I believe in God, but these non-God believers are gonna ask you how is that related to God 9like connected). Such as, how do you know it was him that healed him and not the body itself?
GrinReaper wrote:
You want evidence? My dad's back was hurting for years...God healed just a few months ago.
How is that related to God (like connected). Such as, how do you know it was him that healed him and not the body itself?
Yeah, basically you would only think it was God if you believed in God in the first place. It's not evidence of God to me, it's just evidence that his back pains healed; there are so many other reasons why it doesn't hurt - for example, it got better. And that contradicts the argument that God leaves millions of Africans to starve because we have free will - why is he willing to help out with your dad's back pain and let all of those people die? Sorry, that's the least convincing argument on the thread so far, I think.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
If children are dying in Africa it is for a reason. It's called the 'Big Picture' concept, say an artist creates a work of art (a painting) and then shows it to abunch of people...The people who see it can only see the stuff that is on the canvas but the artist envisioned so much more that the viewers cannot see.
Right, I get that, your dad's back being healed was part of God's big picture, for whatever reason.
I still fail to see how it's even evidence, let alone proof, of God. Isn't it much more likely that the back just healed? It got better? Why do we need to complicate things by saying it was an Act of God?
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
I don't know, I'm not a doctor, nor do I know anything about it. Trapped nerve untrapped itself? Because I can't explain it and possibly you can't explain it either why do we have to resort to saying it's God?
It goes back again to using God as an easy explanation. In the 'origin of the universe' debate people say God created the universe because we don't understand fully and completely how the universe came about. Can't explain it? Must be God. No, that's rubbish, just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we have to use God to fill in the gaps, we can just admit 'we're not sure.' The same thing applies to your dad's back: so maybe we don't know why it cured itself but why should it be God just because we don't know?
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
So you're saying when my dad was in Saudi Arabia and he needed to get baptized that when they prayed for rain and it started raining so hard that there were milk cartons floating across the desert floor...You're gunna say it was just a coincidence?
Or when a lady in our church had cancer and we prayed for her, she went back to the doctor and she didn't have cancer anymore...Just a coincidence? Yeah, right.
Edited by GrinReaper on 06/28/2012 19:25:51
Response to Question 3 What evidence is there for the existence / non-existence of God? Is this sufficient to form a conclusion?
Phoenix wrote:
And why exactly can't God be responsible for it?
I don't think Hat is trying to say that God can't be responsible for it, but rather that it's possible that he might not be responsible for it. This undermines the categorization of the incident as "evidence".
In the end there can be no "evidence" for God's existence because the question of God's existence is dealt with at a level of logic/thought at which there can be no certainty. That is to say, even if everyone in the world believed in God, and even if we saw miracles daily (say mountains floating across the sky and landing on the other side of the world, people being cured of cancer as soon as they prayed to "God", miracles abound and in the public eye, etc.) none of these things could be considered "evidence".
Now, that's a pretty big statement, so allow me to elaborate. Even if we lived in a world such as I have described, where events entirely beyond our capacity to explain occurred continuously, God spoke to all of us, etc., none of these could truly confirm, without doubt, the existence of God. Every supernatural event could be dismissed in some way or another. E.g. "Some new science we don't know about." "Some alien race is messing with our heads." "It's just an illusion." etc. This is considered appropriate because the idea of God is so far beyond our conception of the world it calls everything into question.
This argument can also be used for any other form of knowledge we claim to have, (see Descartes' method of doubt which results in his creation of the cogito). However, it is, as I said before, especially relevant in regards to God because God as a concept exists in a realm of hard to believe things. That is to say, invoking God moves any discussion of reality away from what we perceive and into the realm of what we can conceive.
Thus there can be no "evidence" to support God's existence, only faith that certain events in reality were caused, at least in part, by His intervention.
I'll reply to this thread more in the future. Don't want to make this post any more lengthy.
-Mator
P.S. I do believe in God by the way, if you couldn't tell.
So perhaps they prayed for rain and then it happened to rain. Or maybe you prayed and then they found it she didn't have cancer after all - by coincidence. My view is it would have rained and she would have found out she didn't have cancer even if you hadn't prayed. Good things like that happen all the time without prayers. It rains all the time, people who were told they had cancer find out they don't really all the time - prayers don't make that happen. Are you telling me that every prayer you'ves said has resulted in something like this? I somehow doubt it.
Mator, that's pretty eloquently put but it does point out for me the biggest flaw in the belief of God: that it is a belief and nothing more. There is and can be no evidence for God so why on earth would you believe it?! Why do you believe it in the first place? Because religion has been drummed into humanity for hundreds of years to such an extent where people couldn't speak up against it. And now that times are more liberal and people are willing to question Gods existence we still have religion all around us and people are still believing without quite being sure why they believe.
And it's an argument that neither side can ever win! The religionists can argue all they like that God exists but the atheists will never accept it without evidence. And the atheists will point out that there is no evidence and that science is providing more and more likely options all the time and the religionists will reply that they don't need evidence because they have faith. The faith card trumps all because there is no argument against it except the question, 'Why do you have faith?' and when you trace that question back to its source I doubt you'll find a satisfactory answer.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
God and the afterlife is what humans make of them...
You can believe in God, but don't try to reason with God, or the existence of God.
The spiritual world may not have the same laws and logic as the natural world, the world we live in.
Yet for aeons, humans tend to humanize God (gods) and visualize the afterlife in order to make the supernatural world more understandable and sensable. It is the way for them to cope with the unknowns.
Few Ex: Heaven has clouds, angels with wings, harps, gold, delicious fruits, flowers, bright lights, etc. Hell has fire, molten rock, devils with tridents, sinners getting tortured, lava, darkness, etc.
See the Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy; it vividly depicts how heaven and hell well look like.
Yet, the afterlife maybe beyond and/or far different than how people perceive or visualize in the natural world. The afterlife can be one dimensional, or it can also have infinite dimensions. The afterlife can be as natural as our natural world, or it could be something totally inexplicable, like static on our TVs. Nevertheless, As people's perception and attitude toward natural world and society changes, their perception and attitude toward the spirtual world changes as well.
If you study the history of religious/spiritual beliefs, as early as Animism and other polytheistic beliefs, it can surprising how much disrespect early, "primitive" human beings showed toward their gods or other supernatural beings, esp. when their crops failed or some natural disasters occured.
This actually hit the heart of the philosophy that I have been contemplating about so many times.
Edited by Hotpot on 06/28/2012 23:23:11
Which one are you?
The Hat of Love wrote:
Mator, that's pretty eloquently put but it does point out for me the biggest flaw in the belief of God: that it is a belief and nothing more. There is and can be no evidence for God so why on earth would you believe it?! Why do you believe it in the first place? Because religion has been drummed into humanity for hundreds of years to such an extent where people couldn't speak up against it. And now that times are more liberal and people are willing to question Gods existence we still have religion all around us and people are still believing without quite being sure why they believe.
Why believe it? This is an excellent question, I love it because I've responded to it before.
Why believe in God?
I believe in God while also believing in hard science, philosophy, evolution, etc. (Hell, I'm a Physics Major!) This belief can be, in part, attributed to my upbringing (good ol' nature vs. nuture!). My father was a moderate Christian, and my mother has entertained a vast variety of beliefs from many places. However, it is still one that I have developed on my own through my own observations and reflections.
Observing things from an objective and scientific perspective I have come to find that every belief has some elements to truth to it. One common element is love your neighbor (as phrased according to Christianity). However, I've also learned through history that while many religions have a vast assortment of truths to them, they can also be the means by which great strife can occur in the world. Take for instance the crusades and any number of the other wars fought in God's name the world over.
In this way I have come to the understanding that religions (organized systems of belief with large followings) have an element of truth buried within them, but can lead to great harm in the world and are thus not the means by which one can discover the full truth. This leads me to my current belief: independent pursuit of truth.
The key foundations of this belief are as follows:
1. There is truth in the world, viz., ideas which govern how the world, and quite possibly the universe, works at a deep and fundamental level. Ideas which every sentient life form is capable of discovering through deep and thoughtful reflection on their experiences.
2. This truth is something that every individual must pursue individually. They cannot look to others for the answers, for truth must be discovered within. A wise man can tell you the meaning of life, but it will be meaningless to you if you do not understand it.
3. In this way all sentient creatures should pursue truth in their lives and should do so of their own accord, without others to tell them what is or isn't true. Truth is everywhere and our purpose in life is to discover it.
In my life I have come upon the truth of God's existence. I have recognized that Truth, as it exists in our world, is a sign of higher order. If there was no being (as we describe as God) to weave it into the world, it would not exist. There is an order to the world which cannot be attributed to chance without denying some essential truth which we can all recognize within ourselves.
When I comprehend truth, and when I witness unconditional compassion, I cannot help but see the work of an entity far greater than what I could ever imagine.
This is an understanding which I have come to. It is Truth to me, and is thus something which I cannot adequately convey to you by any means which are available to me now. It is a certainty which you can only discover through looking inward. That is not to say that reflecting will lead you to it now. No indeed! You may never arrive at this certainty which I consider Truth if it is not your lot to do so. But you will discover some other truths about life, for that is something which we all find.
The Hat of Love wrote:
And it's an argument that neither side can ever win! The religionists can argue all they like that God exists but the atheists will never accept it without evidence. And the atheists will point out that there is no evidence and that science is providing more and more likely options all the time and the religionists will reply that they don't need evidence because they have faith. The faith card trumps all because there is no argument against it except the question, 'Why do you have faith?' and when you trace that question back to its source I doubt you'll find a satisfactory answer.
The atheists think they need evidence, but that is not what they need. What they need is certainty. Certainty is something that they can discover on their own, but so long as they look to the religionists to provide them with it they will never find it. There need not be so much conflict about right or wrong, about this belief or that belief. We all are at different places, and there is no right or wrong place to be.
Instead of having so many petty brawls about such silly matters as right and wrong, people should reflect on what they think and why they think it while engaging in thoughtful, civilized, and accepting discourse upon the nature of truth. We need not drive ourselves mad with trying to change the way others think, for it is not within our power to do so. We need only accept that some people think differently than us and some believe things that we do not.
All we can ever do is pursue the truth as well as we are capable and hope that we discover that which is True.
Edited by Mator on 06/29/2012 02:05:14
I, personally (this opinion may differ from yours and I'm fine with that), don't believe in god or anything else like that but if it makes people happy and comforted in times of hardship why would people have anything against it?
@Champion - 'Don't try to reason with God's existence' seems an easy way for early theists to say 'Just trust us, ok? There's a God. It's not up for debate.'
As you said, in an elegance I couldn't find before, God is a way for coping with the unknowns and, I think, little more, at the origin at least.
@Phoenix - I think if you're going to believe something, you do have to believe in it, not just say 'I believe in you God, let me into heaven when I die, ok?' while you're actually just saying it as an insurance policy. Continuing the metaphor, sure, you can prepare your house for a hurricane and you'll be fine either way but now you can't see out of your windows 'cos they're all boarded up and that was a lot of effort for nothing. The same with God - you spend all your life going to Church every Sunday and praising him at every available opportunity and then you die... and nothing happens. If I'm right and there is no such thing as an afterlife then you won't care but it does seem kind of a lot of your life spent for nothing.
@Hunt - I don't think, as I've said before, it's a matter of atheists having to open our eyes, I think it's a matter of everyone having to open their eyes. I think that if we just open our minds to new possibilities we could find out more. More than once in this debate I've heard 'so the universe started in a big explosion?' or 'so we evolved from monkeys?' and people saying that it's ridiculous. Well, no, if you open your mind you'll see that these are perfectly reasonable explanations, with far for reason and explanation than the existence of God. And because, a while back, I opened my eyes, I saw the whole argument and I thought 'why would I believe in God when science presents a much more valid alternative?'
@SpecialOps - Sure, religion can help people, it's the only pro, in my opinion, for religion; if religion can grant people the strength to do stuff or make them feel better in hard times then that's good.
However, as Mator pointed out, there is so much conflict over religion, so many wars, that I think that far overbalances the good. Even today, Muslim extremists are betraying the true nature of their religion and blowing themselves up in the street for various reasons, 'In the name of Islam.' Of course, Islam is supposed to be a peaceful religion but it's so corrupted. Imagine if we all just stopped believing in God, if we all agreed - there would be so much less violence in the world. No 9/11, for one thing.
That's not an argument against, the existence of God, by the way, just organised religion.
@Mator - You're pretty good at this debating thing but I'll see what I can come up with.
So, I'm glad you accept the science, the evolution and everything. It bugs me when theists refuse to accept all this stuff, backed up, and just cite the Bible for everything.
Your post is really interesting though. I do think that atheists do generally need evidence to have certainty - I, certainly, am not going to believe something solely on faith. So you tell me to look to myself for certainty. But, you know what, I look at the world, and the universe, and all these people and I think it's perfectly believable that no higher power was involved. The universe began (we don't know how (yet)) and from there everything's pretty simple, the way matter forms the elements in the nuclear fusion reactors of the stars, the way accretion disks form themselves into planets, the way life began (several different theories) and how evolution has taken us so far.
All our emotions, our thoughts, ourselves can come about by evolution - natural selection has picked these things, our compassion, for example, as the best things to help us and our species survive. That's what I see, it's the 'Truth' as far as I know.
If you weren't brought up by theists, would you still believe what you believe today? Because most religionists have parents who are religionists, they've been brought up to believe in something beyond this world, a higher power. If everyone always had been atheists and you'd been brought up to believe solely in the science, I think you'd believe, like I do, that the world and its people and its beauty can come about naturally, without influence from whatever we conceive God to be.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
True hat, I might not believe in what I do if I was brought up like you...However I wasn't brought up like you I was brought up in a Pentecostal family and i'm very glad I was.
