This has nothing to do with 'God' but have you ever heard of the fourth dimension? (not time).
If you stick your fingers through a 2d square, you would only be seen in that plane as five circles. If a fourth dimensional object/creature interacted with our dimension, it would be viewed as blobs. We can reach inside a square and erase something, in the same was a 4d creature could do to us.
Perhaps God is just a being from a higher dimension. I'll try to find one of the sites I researched this on a few years back.
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Actually, it isn't that uncommon. Paintings, video games, excetera. The difference is, a 4D being would have more tools at its disposal, and could therefore do more.
In the bible, God frequently shows up as a disembodied voice or a ball of light. These could be the same as a 4D being interacting with us.
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These I don't believe btw. But it is semi plausible.
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ZA BrickSquad wrote: How are we humans going to prove where we really originated from one day?
Prove? In what sense do you mean 'prove'? We can keep developing better and more likely theories, but nothing in science is ever for definite - that's why we still have scientific research after thousands of years: there are always gaps to fill, not with God but with theories which really attempt to explain.
In my opinion, real formal proof only exists in the domain of mathematics, but even then you have to assume certain self-evident truths (axioms), before you can get anywhere. In the natural sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) you collect evidence. A theory with stronger or greater amounts of evidence is a better theory than one with less or weak evidence - evidence provides a scale, if you like, of 'how likely is this theory to be true?'
All we can do to better our understanding of "where we really originated from" is to carry out more research, to consider new or tweaked theories, and try to patch together any research we can find. If you're looking for rock-solid, completely irrefutable proof then you're wasting your time, both with science and theology.
That said, sitting around all day and answering any question that comes your way with the word 'God' isn't going to give us a better understanding of the world and how it came to be. Science, on the other hand, can and will provide the best theories we (can) have.
Joshkl2013 wrote:
This has nothing to do with 'God' but have you ever heard of the fourth dimension? (not time).
If you stick your fingers through a 2d square, you would only be seen in that plane as five circles. If a fourth dimensional object/creature interacted with our dimension, it would be viewed as blobs. We can reach inside a square and erase something, in the same was a 4d creature could do to us.
Perhaps God is just a being from a higher dimension. I'll try to find one of the sites I researched this on a few years back.
I'm not sure if you read my last post and decided it won you over and couldn't be answered against, or you didn't read it, or you couldn't be bothered to reply, or what? However, I'll add to it with this new statement you've made.
Yes, I've heard of the fourth dimension. Whether it exists (in the real sense of the word, not time like you say), I can't say for sure.
So now God might be a being from a higher dimension? Oh great, he's even more complex and therefore unlikely. In fact, this proposition is so unlikely, we might as well just assume he doesn't exist.
Lmao @ ninja.
Nah it's pretty clear that a "belief" can't stand up to your "proof". Scientists rears, IMO, just throwing out random theories in the hopes someone will believe them. I personally don't believe the evidence, but it's clear you have won this debate.
You and Hat make a good team. It's been interesting.
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Well, now we have to debate your saying that scientists just throw out random theories. No, that is not what scientists do. They present new theories, they present evidence for their theory and if the evidence is sound and the theory reasonable then it's likely to be accepted. Time and time again, Ninja and I have taken your arguments, refuted them (actually, that was mostly Ninja) and you've dropped the arguments. Now you resort to saying that you don't believe the evidence (why not?) and that scientists are just making stuff up. No, scientists do not make stuff up, that's what religionists do, then they rely on faith rather than evidence. Why do you believe in God's existence more than the scientific theories?
Edited by The Hat of Love on 06/12/2012 14:10:36
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
science isn't just a bunch of theories, its like a really good guestimate. and i do believe in most of it. but i also believe that god cause it all to happen, he put what was nessecery for everything to form blah blah, and eventually you end up where we are now.
also if god doesnt exist (god could be many or just one, i dont have that answer) explain why god over several thousand years has always been presnet in writing or similar. And explain why so many thousnands of people still go to church, or prayers or some sort of service every week.
and if god isnt real explain this http://en.wikiped...%C3%A1tima and all the other miracles and sightings that have happened.
God shows up so much because people want to believe in something. Someone decided that they should worship this God and the idea caught on. It spread through this collection of writings, the Bible, written by people who all believed for whatever reason that this God existed. With lots of money and missions and governments also believing in God, wars, etc. religion spreads. Christianity, the belief in God and his son and whatnot, has spread the most and still today people worship and pray and cite God at every available opportunity.
They believe in God because they have been brought up to believe in God, because their parents believed in God, because their parents believed in God and because all through history anyone who didn't believe in God was shunned; society was such that if you weren't Christian you would get a lot of hate. It was just in ingrained in your mind that God was the right choice because you'd been to church every Sunday for most of your life. It's only in recent times that you've been able to declare yourself an atheist without being cast out of your village or similar.
It's the same today - people believe in God because they've been brought up to believe in God, just like people in India will be brought up to believe different things. It doesn't make it right that just because more people believe something, it's true.
Think - if religion didn't exist, if everyone was atheist and no one had thought about God and you saw someone preaching on the street, telling everyone about this greater being in the sky who created us all and who we should all worship... well, you'd cross the street to avoid him.
As for the sightings - do you realise how many people have seen Elvis Presley since he died?
Edited by The Hat of Love on 06/12/2012 17:58:03
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
The Hat of Love wrote:
God shows up so much because people want to believe in something. Someone decided that they should worship this God and the idea caught on. It spread through this collection of writings, the Bible, written by people who all believed for whatever reason that this God existed. With lots of money and missions and governments also believing in God, wars, etc. religion spreads. Christianity, the belief in God and his son and whatnot, has spread the most and still today people worship and pray and cite God at every available opportunity.
They believe in God because they have been brought up to believe in God, because their parents believed in God, because their parents believed in God and because all through history anyone who didn't believe in God was shunned; society was such that if you weren't Christian you would get a lot of hate. It was just in ingrained in your mind that God was the right choice because you'd been to church every Sunday for most of your life. It's only in recent times that you've been able to declare yourself an atheist without being cast out of your village or similar.
It's the same today - people believe in God because they've been brought up to believe in God, just like people in India will be brought up to believe different things. It doesn't make it right that just because more people believe something, it's true.
Think - if religion didn't exist, if everyone was atheist and no one had thought about God and you saw someone preaching on the street, telling everyone about this greater being in the sky who created us all and who we should all worship... well, you'd cross the street to avoid him.
As for the sightings - do you realise how many people have seen Elvis Presley since he died?
aggreed
god is an easy way out of things. someone found something difficult to explain so he came up with the idea of mysterious creator of everything as a pose to a more logical approach with evidence to back up our claims.
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weeshuggy wrote:
science isn't just a bunch of theories, its like a really good guestimate. and i do believe in most of it. but i also believe that god cause it all to happen, he put what was nessecery for everything to form blah blah, and eventually you end up where we are now.
Why bother introducing further complications (and hence further possible flaws), such as God, when they're not needed. Science aptly explains what it sets out to in its theories without religion.
It sounds like you consider yourself a 'creationist' - would this be true?
also if god doesnt exist (god could be many or just one, i dont have that answer) explain why god over several thousand years has always been presnet in writing or similar.
Why are there so many book on fairies, ghosts, and other highly improbable phenomena? It starts with one idea, which people latch onto and replicate, until it spreads and spreads. Eventually concepts become so ingrained in culture that it's difficult to shake them off. One person's misjudgement and later publishing of an idea could potentially leave the whole of humanity in the dark over the truth of the matter, if the idea is republished and becomes integrated.
There's no denying it, God is quite a welcoming idea at first glance. It's an easy (though not necessarily correct) answer to several problems. Religious people can and do use God to fill apparent 'gaps' in their knowledge. It's effectively a simple cop-out. Unfortunately, the simplest solutions aren't always the right solutions. In fact, as I've outlined in previous posts, the 'God solution' isn't even simple itself due to the issues associated with such a complex being.
And explain why so many thousnands of people still go to church, or prayers or some sort of service every week.
Many people have been brought up going to church (or other religious places of worship - I'll assume churches for this discussion). It's ingrained into their lifestyle: a habit. Why are they susceptible to going along with this? Children, in particular, tend to go along with what they're told is right. If an adult (e.g. parent) tells a child that they shouldn't walk out into the middle of the road, they'll go along with it (hopefully). If the adult tells a child that a supernatural being created the Earth in a week, made everything they can see and will smite them if they don't go to church every Sunday, they'll go along with it, too. This is observable evidence.
We can't be completely sure as to why people are so inclined to accept what they are told. We can of course suggest why: perhaps it's an adaptation which was naturally selected because it gave an advantage in that word-of-mouth allows individuals of a group a better chance of surviving (passing knowledge about prey, predators, environmental dangers etc.).
Without doubt, there are other reason why people frequent churches, such as a sense of belonging to a community and socialising. I didn't focus on these since they're not specific to religion/God.
and if god isnt real explain this http://en.wikiped...%C3%A1tima and all the other miracles and sightings that have happened.
It's probably easiest to consider miracles and sightings separately.
Miracles can be approached from a purely statistical point of view. I'm sure this has already been discussed in this thread since many people like to bring up this argument. Let's consider an event with a skewed probably distribution, such as a person falling from a great height. They either survive (low probability), or they die (high probability). Let's just say that the probability of them surviving is 1 in 1000. This is a really slim chance, so make sure you don't fall from a great height. However, lots of people fall from great heights - thousands in fact. Let's say that in a particular year, 2000 people fall from a certain "great" height at which the chance of surviving is indeed 1 in 1000. Perhaps someone you know fell and lived to tell the tale ... "a miracle!" I hear you say. But, you can expect that at least a couple of people would have survived the fall (expectation = probability * sample = 2000 * 0.001 = 2). You draw attention to the success stories, and forget the 1998 odd who sadly didn't survive. There are also other factors to take into account such as embellishment of stories and those seeking attention.
'Sightings' should probably be enclosed by quote marks - they're more like hallucinations. The humans brain is wonderfully adept at playing tricks on us. Consider optical illusions - we can often think we see things which in reality aren't even there. A great example of this quirk is our brain's tendency to recognise human faces where they don't exist. A reason for this might be to help us to identify other individuals of our species - friends. So, people can often see things which don't exist, with or without drugs contributing to this effect. If they're of a religious nature, they might interpret their hallucination as such.
Interesting, also, that this 'sighting' of "Our Lady of Fátima" which you reference involves children. Children have a greater sense of fantasy, and tend to be less critical. It is likely that a minor trick of the mind could cause them to believe something extraordinary while they fill in the details themselves.
Yes it did involve children but there were also 70,000 other people that witnessed it, not all of them were children. I think there are even statements from people there saying it did happen.
"Why bother introducing further complications (and hence further possible flaws), such as God, when they're not needed. Science aptly explains what it sets out to in its theories without religion."
Science doesnt explain much if you think about it though. You ever heard of the theory about how if you walk into a wall an infinite number of times eventually you will walk through it. Prove it. oh wait you can't. This is what your asking us to do. There will never be a sure answer for God but its a good bet there is one.
there is also "schrodinger's cat", that theory is a load of balls, it can only be dead OR alive never both but until you open the damn box you can't know for sure. This is like god, you will never know until your time comes.
then theres things like the placebo effect, you think you can explain it but really you cant. It just seems to happen.... Nor can science prove cold fusion or how about dark matter.
also science says there could be other dimensions ect... whats to say that some other being from another dimensions didnt create what we know as the universe.
weeshuggy wrote:
Yes it did involve children but there were also 70,000 other people that witnessed it, not all of them were children. I think there are even statements from people there saying it did happen.
Sorry, I admit I didn't read the whole Wikipedia article - it's pretty long and reading loads of nonsense isn't great when I'm trying to remember stuff for an exam.
Also these children sound like nutters: "The children subsequently wore tight cords around their waists to cause themselves pain, performed self-flagellation using stinging nettles, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance."
I've now had a flick through the article again. It seems this incident with 70,000 people was a similar but different event called the "Miracle of the Sun". Some people stared at the Sun and saw it do crazy things. The trouble is, all of these people had travelled to Fatima to see something extra-ordinary, and they all believed in the religious sighting and wanted to see it for themselves. Therefore, psychologically, they were inclined to make their trip worthwhile - this could have added to the affect of brain-trickery. Besides, looking directly at the Sun is never going to help your vision, is it now?
Science doesnt explain much if you think about it though. You ever heard of the theory about how if you walk into a wall an infinite number of times eventually you will walk through it. Prove it. oh wait you can't. This is what your asking us to do. There will never be a sure answer for God but its a good bet there is one.
Nope, never heard of that theory. You thinking of platform 9 and 3 quarters? I disagree that it's a good bet there is a God. Did you read my argument put forth to Josh about the improbability of God's existence based on his complexity? I'd be interested to hear your response to it.
there is also "schrodinger's cat", that theory is a load of balls, it can only be dead OR alive never both but until you open the damn box you can't know for sure. This is like god, you will never know until your time comes.
I have heard of Schrödinger's cat, yes. I wouldn't really call it a theory, however. It's more of a thought experiment to explain a concept behind quantum mechanics. Yes, we can't know for sure that God doesn't exist. In actual fact, the chances aren't 50:50 like in the case of the cat. Thinking rationally, we come to the conclusion that it is far more likely that God does not exist. You might only really find out when you die, but that doesn't mean you should waste your life devoting time to something which (almost certainly) doesn't exist.
then theres things like the placebo effect, you think you can explain it but really you cant. It just seems to happen.... Nor can science prove cold fusion or how about dark matter.
The placebo effect is very interesting. I think you're right in saying that science doesn't completely understand its mechanism. But I don't think science actually claims to set out how it works, at the moment. We have some good ideas though, such as the psychological effect of expecting to feel better, and association of pills etc. with feeling better. We don't know that much about the brain at the moment, but it's a hot area of research and I should think that if anyone's going to explain its workings, it will be a scientist not a priest.
also science says there could be other dimensions ect... whats to say that some other being from another dimensions didnt create what we know as the universe.
So we can't explain things - so what? Scientists aren't afraid to admit it. Should we disregard what we have because we can't prove precisely what causes the placebo effect? No, it's a completely different subject and one that's pretty much null anyway.
Schroedinger's Cat is not a theory, it's a thought experiment designed to help explain quantum mechanics. Of course we know it's dead or alive; the principal of it being both is sound and not, as you say, 'a load of balls'. I'm interested that you then said God was the same as Schroedinger's Cat which is a bit odd since that just implies God is a load of balls. As for knowing when my time comes? Well, if I'm right, and there's nothing to say I'm not, I never will know and what does it matter when we can't ask anyone about it. Anyway, not understanding quantum mechanics is not a valid argument for the existence of God.
As for your Lady of Fátima, further readin produces a viable and much more liekly explanation:
Professor Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven, has stated sun miracles cannot be taken at face value and that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the color changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[23] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where similar observations as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people. Meessen also cites a British Journal of Ophthalmology article that discusses some modern examples of Sun Miracles. While Meessen suggests possible psychological or neurological explanations for the apparitions he notes, "It is impossible to provide any direct evidence for or against the supernatural origin of apparitions". He also notes that "[t]here may be some exceptions, but in general, the seers are honestly experiencing what they report."
And the sightings of Jesus et all were seen by three children, aged between 7 and 10. Why did only these three see the apparitions, out of seventy thousand? Everyone else was there, the Wikipedia article says that the religionists were looking over at the place they'd apparently been seen before they looked at the sun. Sorry, Huggy, it's not a credible story.
Extradimensional beings have been discussed above and, as Ninja has said, why would you complicate things further by bringing them into play when out current theories, while not fully refined, still adequately and logically explain our existence.
And what has us not understanding the placebo effect got to do with God?
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
Ok I'll ride along with the all sightings etc.. being halucinations for arguments sake.
And i'll admit i didn't word the Schroedinger's Cat bit to well, but the point i was trying to make is science doesn't explain everything like you seem to want it to. There are many things it can't answer thats just one of the examples i could think of. I meant that you cant prove god does or doesnt exist, as much as you can theorise about it you shall never really know. like josh said neither side will change its view.
As for the walking through walls thing, i have that right its to do with quantum physics and relativity. its not something i can reallly explain though.
"lets say for a moment that i gave you proof. in your worldview, you couldnt be certain that the proof was certain. So why give you proof when all you'll do is reject it, as you have already done with the proof thats available to you. The truth is, you dont want the proof. because if people can be certain of things, then they can be certain that god exists.
"Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12"
I don't quite understand how any of that relates to whether God exists.
Again, Schroedinger's Cat does not attempt to answer anything so the fact that it doesn't isn't a great surprise.
We're not claiming that science explains everything. I've said more than once that science doesn't cover everything, that we don't know everything. The difference is that scientists are willing to accept that they dont' know and just carry on trying to find out more, rather than demanding an explanation immediately in the form of a God.
And no, we can't prove that God exists, but the only reason people think that he does is because people always have done. There's no evidence for it and rational thought, again, brings us back to the conclusion that there's no reason or anything to say God exists. We can't prove that the thousandth time you walk into a wall it won't suddenly let you through, any less than we can prove that the spectrum of light will suddenly reverse next Tuesday but common sense and observable truths tell us about the universe. Nothing but scripture and word of mouth tells us about God.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
apperently im not making my self clear somehow about the Schroedinger's Cat, i know what i mean but oh well....
"but the only reason people think that he does is because people always have done"
Now that sentence is a load of balls, God gave us free will we believe in him because we choose to, not because we are told to. (maybe when younger yes, but aftre the age of say 15, not so true.)
even if he/she/it/they doessn't exist i'd rather live my life with meaning and purpose and die and find out god isnt real, than life my life with no real meaning or purpose and die and find out god is real.
weeshuggy wrote:
Ok I'll ride along with the all sightings etc.. being halucinations for arguments sake.
Good. I assume "for arguments sake" means "I can't rebut that argument".
And i'll admit i didn't word the Schroedinger's Cat bit to well, but the point i was trying to make is science doesn't explain everything like you seem to want it to.
True, science doesn't explain everything. True, also, that I would like it to - how amazing would that be? Very. But, it doesn't and I can live with that. The wonderful thing about science is that it's like a blot of ink spreading out over a page - we're learning more and more as time progresses. There's always more to know and that's why science is such a fascinating discipline.
The point that I would make is that when science explains something, it actually explains it.
There are many things it can't answer thats just one of the examples i could think of. I meant that you cant prove god does or doesnt exist, as much as you can theorise about it you shall never really know.
You can't prove anything - already discussed. You can have a pretty good idea, though. We make predictions all the time, and if they're based on good evidence they're quite often right. We can certainly say that one event is more likely than another.
like josh said neither side will change its view.
Completely untrue. All the time, people change their view. There are people who have become devout theists (God knows why?!) after being atheists, and vice versa.
As for the walking through walls thing, i have that right its to do with quantum physics and relativity. its not something i can reallly explain though.
I don't understand the relevance. Perhaps you can explain?
"lets say for a moment that i gave you proof. in your worldview, you couldnt be certain that the proof was certain. So why give you proof when all you'll do is reject it, as you have already done with the proof thats available to you. The truth is, you dont want the proof. because if people can be certain of things, then they can be certain that god exists.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Proof is by its very nature always certain, and irrefutable. Is this a quote from somewhere?
"Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11
We probably wouldn't be here without such an orderly universe. It's likely that such reliability of the laws of nature allow life to flourish. But that doesn't mean that the universe was designed. Perhaps there are many other universes, in which case the reason that we're here discussing this is enough to show that we're in a universe that supports life. It's of no special significance that this particular universe is good for life.
"doesn't have to behave this way." - this might not be true. It could be that such fundamental laws are inextricably linked and bound into the order in which they currently manifest themselves. They couldn't exist any other way.
"a universe in which things pop in and out of existence." - this is a very interesting suggestion. Perhaps we're in just one of a long series of universes. This one universe happens to support life which is why we're here, but all of the others past (or future!) might not support life.
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12"
Scientists often use what are seen as 'religious words', such as 'miracle' to describe the world/universe. This doesn't mean that they believe in God.
Since my family is religous, i was since little, tought normal religous ways. But since i lived in the USA, a place where religion isnt as important as in other countries, It was much that i learned or practiced. So, in my life ive been believing in God, bu not as much as others. But now im not so sure. But I think that many people who are born in religous families are afraid to not believe because they think God will punish them, so they are forced to believe. Im not sure if i believe or not right now. Im in a neutral place, where i dont care if i believe or dont. But I wish everyone would understand that religion was created just so humans would believe in something, but it doesnt mean we all have to. Science and Religion will always be fighting to prove that they are right. Hopefully, one day we will find out the truth, but for now, I neither think God does nor doesnt exist.
which means im agnostic.
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